Don and Libby Akers Two Interviews

Oral Interviews of Mr. and Mrs. Don Akers

Mrs. Lema E. Akers –Clerk Typist, Secretary, Stenographer-Testing Director-1951-56 1960-1985

Interviewer: Deren Derya. Hanover College 1995

Your name and when did you first move to the area?

My name is Elizabeth Akers but I worked at the Proving Ground as Lema E. Akers. I moved to Madison in 1950.

When did you start working at the Jefferson Proving Ground?

It was around March of 1951.

How long have you worked there?

I retired in January of 1985. I was laid off in 1956 till about 1960 thereabouts.

Were did you work?

I worked in what they call Proof in the testing area. I started off as a clerk typist in the main part, and then as a secretary and then I started working in testing as a Test Director.

Did you also live on the post?

Yes. We lived out there about 8 years and we moved out there about 1965, thereabouts.

Would you describe your housing and the experience of living on the post?

It was very nice, the houses were all shaped in a horseshoe with the kernel being in the middle. There was one house then in the center. Most everybody out there had children of various ages, and we had two that were in high school. It was a very nice place to be, it was safe. It was a close knit group, the ladies had a bowling team and we used to get together for parties and they also had a BOQ out there that was, of course, on a small scale. We didn’t have a lot of military usually 3, possibly 4. But it was a good place to have parties, when the kids had their sixteenth birthday party we had it out there. It was very easy to get to work.

Did you have more than one job at the Proving Ground?

Yes. I tested ammunition for quite a few years, and then there was a program at Aberdeen Proving Ground that set up what they call the standard rounds, that your test ammunition is tested against. That responsibility was transferred to Jefferson Proving Grounds and I got the job for that, and that was quite interesting. When a new round was developed, at Pickeytenny Arsenal usually, then once it was ready to go into production they had to have a round to test it against. So we set that up, using five different tubes, fired on three different days, put all this data together and that was used from the Proving Grounds all over the country. It was kind of like a Bureau of Standards for ammunition.

For each of the jobs what kind of training did you receive?

To be a test director you was supposed to have been a college graduate. I only had two years of college but I had math and physics. That got me the job to begin with.

The rest of it was on the job training. We had schools that we would go to to see what other places were doing, but it was mostly on the job training.

What kind of equipment did you use for your jobs?

As a test director of course we were testing the ammunition so we used the weapons, we used scales to measure the powder, and we used instrumentation to test the velocity of a round If it had to function behind a screen, which would mean inside of a building, we had observers who watched to see how far behind that screen it functioned. We had observers out in the north end of the Proving Ground, if you were shooting five miles down the road, to tell whether your ammunition was coming in right. We also had pressure gauges to check the pressure. I guess that was the main thing the velocity, the pressure, if it functioned or didn’t.

Do you remember the first computer in the Proving Ground?

Do I remember the first computer? No I don’t

Would you mind telling me how much you made in your first job?

When I started out? I think, it seemed like, my check was like Seventy-Five dollars for two weeks, and I felt like I was rich. That there was a good pay back then. By the time I finished, I was making around $32-$33,000 a year.

What was the atmosphere and the work environment like at the time you started.

I mean were doing things like fear of war, dedication or victory, relationship with other employees.

At the time I started that was a time when they were, more or less, building up the stockpile of ammunition because they had used it in World War II, and of course we had the Korean Conflict. It was a very friendly place to work, we played cards at lunchtime, and everybody pretty much got along with each other. Of course there is always a bad apple here and there. But I always thought it was a very good place to work and I enjoyed the work

Did the atmosphere change over time in a significant way?

Not a lot. I guess there was some competitiveness when job openings became available. But you applied for it and they had a committee that screened them, and then the supervisors made the selection. But everybody pretty much accepted what was there.

What role did the women play in accomplishing the munitions testing mission at JPG?

There weren’t very many women that tested ammunition. There might have been, probably, around six of us. Like I told one of the guys one day, “the women did the best job”. I think the women did a good job, they were conscientious, not saying the men weren’t. But I think the women knew that they had to hold their on. One of the gunners made a comment to me, one time when I was out firing and it was a pretty cold day, and he said, “You’re out on the line again! I think the boss is trying to prove that he is not showing any favoritism”. Because we were sent out, and we expected to be sent out, just like the rest. But there weren’t near as many women in the technical part of the testing as there were men. Probably because of the education, most women didn’t go in for math and science and physics, I guess, back then.

How did the women’s role change over time?

I think they accepted us more, once we showed them we could do the job. I think we probably were accepted and respected. When I was Chairmen of the Calibration Ammunition we had meetings with other installations, it would be Aberdeen Proving Ground, Yuma Proving Ground, Pickertenny Arsenal, Rock Island Arsenal. And for a long time I was the only woman. I was Chairman of the Committee, I think just because they figured since we had the responsibility here I could do it. But the men all helped me and when I traveled I couldn’t have traveled with a finer bunch of people then I traveled with. Wherever they went, they took me and we all went out to dinner together. I think over the years they just accepted that the women could do it.

What is your best memory of being at the Proving Ground?

The people. I didn’t mind it when I retired, but I did miss the people. And I love running into them now.

What was your worst memory?

I don’t really know.

Did any of the commanders make an impression on your life.

Most of them we liked real well. One that we had impressed me, in that he could remember names. Even after he was transferred out he would come back to a get together that the Proving Ground was having, he would call me by my first name. But that impressed me a lot with him that he could do that, because there were a lot of people out there. I think he just respected all of them for the job that they had to do. But that was one thing that impressed me that he could remember your name, even after he had moved away from here.

Did you or any of your coworkers experience any serious accidents?

Yes, we had one man that was killed while I was out there. The fact that I had passed the test as a stenographer when they had the investigation for that accident, the lady who was the secretary for the security officer was not getting paid as a secretary so she didn’t want to take the information down, so they roped me into doing this. That was a TOUGH job! The investigation and writing up the reports and all, I must have worked on that for about two months. That was a bad experience. He was killed and a co-worker was hurt. There was, I think, one killed before I got out there; I am not sure about that. But there was always some little accident, somebody tripping over something but that was the worst.

What did you think when they closed the Proving Ground in 95?

Of course I was partial to the Proving Ground and I thought we did a really good job. I felt that they should have left it open. I feel like that there was no way they could go in there and clean that up so that it can be used. They are using the south end where the ammunition wasn’t fired, but the north end has a lot of live ammunition out there. It paid well, it contributed a lot to the economy of the area around here. And of course I didn’t want to see it closed, but I guess they are doing all right, I don’t know.

Are there any other memories or stories you would like to share?

I have a picture, this was in the paper about probably in the 50’s, and it shows me checking some powder charges and we were going to fire them in the weapon. They ran it in the Madison Paper, The Indianapolis Paper and the Louisville Paper. That was a nice memory. We had a lot of fun along with the work. It was a very good place to work.

Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I had. If you want to add anything.

I can’t go back to the early part in the 40’s when it was being built because I didn’t live here then. I guess not.

The newspaper clip dating back to, approximately, 1955 said; “Woman’s weapons have changed from frying pans and rolling pins to heavy artillery. Pictured is Elizabeth Akers, married, the mother of two children, as she checks a propellant charge for a 8 inch Howitzer at Jefferson Proving Ground. A resident of Route 3, she is a project engineer at JPG. The object of her project is to develop a dual gun propelling charge for 8 inch and 155mm Howitzers. bs

Don Akers

Interviewer; Josh Whalen, Hanover College

December 1^st1995

First thing we would like to know is when did you first come to Southern Indiana?

1951.

Did you come just for the work at JPG?

No, at first taught a farm school in this county of Veterans, Second World War Veterans and I did that for about three and one-half years.

Did you start working at JPG after that or when did you start?

I did start then, but I only stayed out there about six months and there was a talk they were going to be laying people off because the war was winding down. And that is the first thing that a institution like that has to do is start getting rid of personnel. I was one of the last to go in so I would be one of the first to go out.

What did you do there?

I was a proof director.

What is that?

A proof director is in charge of a program when you test a component of ammunition for the U.S. Army. You are involved with gunners who do the firing of the program and observers and instrumentation, and some times some other things like demolition. Whatever is necessary to shoot a particular program and get the results that the government requires of that ammunition that you are testing at that particular time.

I guess you were one of the higher up responsibilities?

It’s a middle management job I guess you could say. I wouldn’t say high up.

Did you live on Post?

We lived on the Post for about eight years. There were twenty-six residents and we were renting and we rented one for about that time.

What was it like to living there?

It was wonderful to live out there. You were living out in the country and they had a loop. and the houses around the loop, and we just happened to be lucky enough one time, we needed to rent something and one was available.

Your wife said you raise your children out there?

The eight years that we were there, they were in school.

And they went to school in Madison?

Yeah, they come to town.

There were other families there as well?

All the houses, I think there were twenty-six, and nearly all the time they were full, that we were there. As I say we were lucky to get one. Someone moved out and we happened to need a rent space and we got in. Our timing was right.

Did you have more than one job while you were there?

Yes, I was the agronomist out there for a couple of years. They instigated a timber sale and since I had graduated in Agriculture from college, they chose me. And we did, we put on a timber sale. And then when that was over I went back to proof directing.

So how long did you do the timber sale?

It lasted a couple of years. You had to go around and check things and take the supposedly buyers around and show them where the timbers were that would be for sale so that they could evaluate what they wanted to bid on and so forth. Cruise them in other words

Did you receive training for any of these jobs or was it because you already knew how to do them?

Well I graduated in agriculture so they gave me that job. No training for being a proof director. You learned while you performed from the older members that could help you along.

What kind of equipment did you use as a proof director?

The headset, so that you could talk to people while you were working with on your program. Our main article was a pencil, paper and a whistle.

A Whistle? What did you use the whistle for?

Well the gunner would go out and load the weapon, and they would come back and say “well the weapon is ready”, so you would contact your people that you got on your headset, plus on the speaker if you have others and tell them that you have a “okay” gun, in other words you are ready to fire. And they say “ok” or give you the go ahead. So you would blow your whistle two times and then the gunners’ fires the gun.

How about selling timber? Did you just drive the buyers around basically?

I basically just took the buyers around, because it was scattered all over the Proving Grounds. And there is 56,000 acres out there, so that is scattered pretty good..

I don’t know if you used computers when you were there?

I did not. I didn’t have to get into computers.

Did you remember when they first brought them to the base?

The other departments at that time, they were using computers where they were necessary. But when you are on the firing line you don’t need the computer there. But people you were in association with on your program. They would be getting their information and feeding it into a computer sometime, a little. It grew a little as we went along.

You don’t have to answer this question, but would you mind saying how much you made?

At that time I started out at around $6,000 I think. That was back in the 70’s.

What was the atmosphere and the work environment like, as a proof director? No doubt you would be around a lot of people moving around.

Not too many. I liked the job, it was interesting, every once in a while a challenge, to it.

And you got to meet a lot of different people I take it.

But the nice thing about it to explain it as easy: Have you ever been to the Proving Ground and seen the firing line?

Yes, I have been out there.

We would go out there to fire the guns north, everything fired north. You was outside part of the time to fire your program and then you got to stay in the office and sit at the desk and work your record up. So this is wonderful, you’re outside about half the time and your inside about half the time. That was the nice thing about the job.

Was there fear for when the war started dwindling down? Were people, were they happy about this or sad about it?

About the war dwindling?

No doubt the war was getting over and people no doubt they were going to lose their job.

This was in the 50’s at first. They just took it in stride mostly. They knew what to expect when you went out their.

Did the atmosphere change or did people’s feeling change at all, or was it just pretty constant?

It was pretty constant. Like I said I worked out there in the 50’s for a short while and then the Korean War ventured down and then I went back I think it was in the 70’s (69 or 70 or something like that I went back).

Did you have a lot of interaction with women?

If they were needed or if they had the particular job where you had to call upon them. Most of the time when you shoot a cannon or a weapon one of the things, you have to have is, say for example, velocity. How fast is that thing going? Is it doing the proper speed? And usually you were in contact with ladies then, because they would run the little machines that would take the speed for you. So about one-third of the time you might have the ladies around or working with them. They wouldn’t have to be there at the firing positions; they would be back in their work area.

They would be keeping track of data and stuff?

Some data

Did that change over time or stay pretty constant?

No, it stayed pretty constant all the time we were there. They didn’t really modernize the Proving Ground like going into super computers and all that stuff. They might have after I left, because I left in 85. And they closed down about ten years later.

What is your best memory of being there, at JPG?

Well I got acquainted with a lot of people I still have friendship with and I like that. Most of them, about like me, are retired. But you formed good friendships, that was the nicest thing about the place.

And you also enjoyed living on post as well?

That was wonderful, the eight years we lived out there. Because, like my wife said, we could go off and leave the kids and not worry a bit about them, not like if we had been in town or someplace. As a matter of fact, they would maybe five or six of them get together about the same age and they would just get out and sleep all night on the parade ground, the only thing that could bother them was a deer, just perfectly safe no danger. And that was a great place to be.

On the other hand, what was the worst thing about being there, besides maybe being laid off?

Well no I retired the second time. You will spend a lot of time when you are in a place like that and not go over in town and know what’s happening. You miss out on gossip and stuff. It wasn’t really something that you could say was just worse, it was just everybody, almost everybody, was pretty satisfied with the jobs they had. They were good jobs.

I guess that’s why you attracted a lot of people to work out at the Proving Grounds?

When we left there were about 400 employees. When they were at a maximum employees, I understand, they have had as many as 1700. But in 85, when we left, there was about 400, so it was going down.

Did you have any interactions with the actual military part of things? The actual commanders?

I had actions with military. There would be maybe a test come up that the military from some Army installation wanted to be there and see it, and see the results and this sort of thing. So you would have them come in on your programs at times, usually would be people like some captains or a major.

It wasn’t intimidating at all though?

Hell no! You were just doing your jobs. They were just wanting to learn to, like you, what that ammunition was going to do or if it performed up to specifications.

No doubt, being on the firing line could be dangerous. Where there any other serious accidents while you were there? Ammunition blowing up?

No. There were accidents but not really to serious.. When I was not there I understand there was a serious accident or two. But there safety record was really good. They had us do everything we could to insure that everybody would be safe.

What are your thoughts when the Proving Ground closed?

What are my thoughts?

Yeah, what did you think about it. No doubt you were retired for ten years already.

I had retired. In a way I kind of hated to see them close it down because the work simply went somewhere else. You are to young to remember this. Back in 80 to 90 the government kept trying to close military bases down saying “Look at the money we are saving”. You might have heard about this. They saved it here but they took the work somewhere else and had to spend it there. They say “we just moved it, we saved it”. I would have like to see it stayed open because it was a valuable asset to this county and this part of the country.

It also broke a lot of ties? People have moved away.

A lot of them where like my wife and I they were at retirement age and it didn’t affect us.

And they couldn’t get other jobs around here, those that were younger. But when they were already down to about 400 employees, when they were closing it down entirely, it didn’t affect too many people I don’t believe, because I haven’t heard of anybody who really suffered.

Any other memories that you have that are special to you across the board? That you might like to share with others?

Not really. I think they are still having there deer hunts. That is not a memory for me so much, but it was to watch the other people who love to do that thing. I never did hunt deer so I didn’t have any interest. But it was a nice thing that people outside the Proving Grounds could come in under proper instructions and so forth and if they got a permit and deer hunt. I understand some years they would harvest maybe as many as between two or three thousand deer out there. But they would have the people from the State of Indiana come out and asset how many deer they should harvest, so that the others could have plenty of food, and spend the winter. These are the figures they would come up with, that they could harvest two or three thousand. That’s a lot of deer. There are 56,000 acres and they wanted to keep the deer population down so that they wouldn’t just starve to death.