Interview with Paul Torline

Wednesday 9^th   of April 2008

11:00 am Bldg 125 (the old JPG Fire Department)

By Mike Moore

 

     Mike Moore:  Just get comfortable. Usually I just ask the question, “When did you come to work at JPG”? Then I just sit back and listen.

 

Paul: I think it was ’65.   I have to look that date up. When I got out of high school, I went into the Army Reserves. When I got back from six months training, I got a job at Grote. I worked at Grote for five years in assembly. I am an outside man and I got tired of being inside, so a job came open at the telephone company and I went down there and became a cable splicer for the Indiana Telephone Corporation.

 

     My children were being born and the phone company kept sending me out of town.  I had to stay for a week at a time at different locations. I got kind of tired of that and Jefferson Proving ground was picking up again. I put an application in at the proving ground. Because of my assembly history, there was a job open in assembly at building 600, so I started there.

 

     I worked there for three or four years then the two telephone people, Mr. Cook and Mr. Kirkham retired and that left an opening in the telephone section. I qualified for that so I worked out here as a lineman and a cable-splicer.  We would try to keep the lines going every time they would shoot them down, we would go out and splice the lines together so they could continue the programs. That was quite interesting.

 

Mike Moore:  You mean the shells we shot would actually go out and blow up the phone lines?

 

Paul: Well, what happens is that scrap pieces of metal thru the years would hit those lines and kind of ding them. With the freezing and thawing and you get enough of those dings in them, they would just break. You had nature and the wind.  Trees would fall on them. The wire on them thru the years was pretty bad. As time went by they decided to do away with the wire and up grade communications and a cable was buried. That helped a lot.  You had to bury the cable in highly explosive areas with  remote controlled diggers.  Demolition was always involved in that by backfilling, checking and so forth.  It was quite interesting.

 

Mike Moore:  I remember you telling me that when you operated that remote digger called a “Barbar Green” that shells would come up out of the ground.

 

Paul: Yeah they would come rolling out thru the dirt.

 

Mike: Do you think they were live rounds?

 

Paul: Well, Demolition would say so. They would gather them all up nice and gently and take them to an area, put a charge on them and blow them up.  I asked them one time how they knew the shells were live.  The Demolition man said, “because of the noise and the amount of bang we got.  They were sure that some of them were hot.

 

Mike:  Where did you dig them up?

 

Paul: Pretty much all over.  We tried not to go in to the high explosive area, but you had to have communications in these areas. Sometimes it was difficult, because you almost had to hear the Barbar Green, because it would bog down. Demolition would get a armored personnel carrier (APC) and follow the Barbar Green at safe distance so that they could tell if the machine stopped. They could control the machine remotely from the PC.

 

Mike: Were Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) in the PC. Did you ever get to ride in the PC?

 

Paul:  No, No, No. I never rode in the PC.  It was EOD people and then Roads and Grounds, the operators would control the Barbar Green. 

 

Mike:  So you waited until the ditch was dug and then you would go in with the wire?

 

Paul: Yes, I would put the wire in there and then they would cover it up.

 

Mike: You said earlier that you are an outside person. What actually does that mean. Don’t you think you could ever stand a bookkeeping job.

 

Paul: No I don’t think so. I am an old farm boy and I am just like to be outside and working outside.

 

     In fact, when we still had the iron wire, a pole would get knocked down by wind or whatever, where you could not set a pole.  Then you would have to get Demolition to come and they would drill a hole and put a charge in and blow the hole before you could dig.  That was interesting. If they put too much of a charge in then the blast would scatter dirt for twenty feet.  You would have to go find the dirt and bring it back to set the pole with. Most of the time, they did a good job. Just a nice clean hole and then you might have to clean it out a bit.

 

Mike: You had to work with a lot of different organizations to do your job. I mean you depended on them to make sure it was safe.

 

Paul:  the electrician would sometimes have the same problem as we did. So on a lot of these things we would all work together to get the job done.

 

Mike:  What was your boss’s name?

 

Paul:  Everett Bryan was the first guy that was over the telephone office and George Payton was the cable-splicer. When Everett retired, then George was promoted to boss and then I took over as cable-splicer. We were the installers. If any body wanted a phone moved we would move it.

 

Mike: Did you ever think you were at risk or in danger out there?

 

Paul: No. EOD people were very conscious.  They did not want anybody hurt. They would not let you get hurt. They were pretty strict. You couldn’t drive a particular place until they okayed it. If a line would go down and we had to get over there; they would send a guy out there and he would search the area making sure that there was no explosives on the surface. At the all clear then we would pull the line back up and splice it together. They were very good. They would stay with all the time and make sure everything was okay until you got the pole set. EOD would make sure that you did not get carried away and forget where you were. All in all I never worried about it being dangerous, because they were good at their jobs.

 

Mike:  Did you ever get involved in the Fiber optics that was installed up North?

 

Paul: Yes, We worked with the Data Communications people and the Electronics people.  It was kind of a gray area. The Electronics people went to school on fiber optics and then they brought a team in here and all the telephone got a quick course on it. We never spliced any out in the field. The electronics people did all that.

 

Mike: Who were some of the folks that you worked with?

 

Paul: Larry Stewart and I were basically the line crew at one time. Then Bob Alphin was an installer and he would help us. Sparky Brunton was in there for awhile as a lineman, then he left on a medical. There was not much turnover. When you needed help the electricians and our team worked together a lot. Of course There was Roads and Grounds. Those people always operated the equipment. Sometimes when they were busy they would let us use the “Ditch Witch” and dig the ditch inside and here where it was safe. We got a license to operate the equipment.

 

Mike: I remember when your son, Mark was working on his Eagle Project for the Boy Scouts and you brought a bucket truck to the Cemetery Chapel where Mark was refurbishing it.  Did you normally operate that as part of your job. How did you get that from the proving ground.

 

Paul: I had training and I was licensed to use the truck. Some of these poles were kind of shaky.  We used the bucket truck to install the wire on those old poles. We did not use it that much, but we also had a bucket fixed for that big crane.  We could get to really high places with that. We had a vehicle that was a three quarter ton, four wheel drive with a winch. We could get into some areas and get out. You had to get it fixed as long as it was safe and clear to do that. As you know in some places this ground is soft. Some times you would get in and get stuck and have to call a wrecker to winch you out.

 

Mike: Were you there when the Union was formed and why was the Union adopted at JPG.

 

Paul: It was AFGE 2797. I was here before the Union and quite honestly the reason for the Union was strictly for information flow. I mean as far as the Union was concerned, you couldn’t strike, you couldn’t do anything. Everyone said why would you want a Union? The thing about it was this place was kicked around so many times to be closed and different things were happening and policies changed. If you had a Union then management was obligated to keep the employees informed and the Union informed. So if there was something coming down the trail such as Base Closure, something like that, then they would have to give you the information.

 

     For as that was concerned, the Union was good and the dues were not much. You had a little insurance, a few perks with the Union, but not much. It was mainly for information to keep up on a day to day basis.

 

Mike: I was an honorary member one time and we went up to the State house to conduct an informational picket. The thing I found was that most employees were loyal and they were really proud to work for the Army.  Every time that we were in wartime we would support the troops.

 

Paul: Yeah, I walked in Indianapolis along the picket line too. We were trying to bring attention to Jefferson Proving Ground. We all felt and it was true that we were very efficient and didn’t cost the taxpayers all that much. We were very efficient and we were proud of what we did. So that was our American men and women, children in a War Zone. Our mission was to make sure they had the best possible round of ammunition and it would do what it was supposed to and that there were no malfunctions. So everybody was definitely dedicated on that point.

 

Mike: Who was the First President of the Union?

 

Paul: I don’t know whether Frank Inskeep was or a Mr. Kirkam may have been the first one.

 

Mike: What was Frank like?

 

Paul: He was always dedicated to the people. He was a Union man. As President, his powers were rather limited. He could be firm. He took his job seriously.

 

Mike: What was “Radio Bob” like: I don’t know how he was as President. He always seemed happy and smiling. I had a lot of respect for him after we went on the informational picket in Indianapolis.

 

Paul: He was quite a character.  I tell you the first day--- -- we would kid our supervision and we said did you ever interview him or talk to him before you hired him. They would flat say no.  Well the very first day he came to work, Larry and I went to the motor pool and picked up our truck and we saw this guy in there that we had never seen before, pickup the trip ticket. He had long hair and a field jacket on.  Everybody just kidded and said that he was a long haired hippie in a field jacket. He was new and he saw all the vehicles in the motor-pool and he just decided he would go down the row of vehicles to see how many radios were around  and what was in vehicles and how many vehicles. So all of a sudden over our radio we heard  one of the guards calling back to headquarters saying, say we have a long haired hippie going thru our vehicles, So Larry and I looked at each other and said what do we do. Should we go.  I said lets just hang around and see what happens. It will be good experience for him. Larry said yeah.

 

     So we went back to the office and told the boss what was going on. We told him that you better go and rescue him or he is liable to be in jail. They went up there and got it all straightened out. They proceeded to tell Mr. Falls, Bob Falls, what he should do and should not do. He was a good radioman. His problem was,  he had about  a ¼ Indian blood, which was okay. I will get to that later. He was very sharp, but he had this long hair, because he said when he was in the army they cut his hair off.  At that time he said that as long as he had to wear short hair, that was how long he was not going to get a haircut when he got out of the government. So I guess he did not get a haircut for a year or so. It was pretty long.  Everybody just called him Radio Bob.

 

     When he told us that he had some Indian blood, we used to call him Cochise. That did not bother him, because he like those Indians. There were some Indians that he did not like so he did not like to be called those names. There was a girl that worked in the Crypto side. She said, “Why do you call him cold cheese?”  We said we don’t call him cold cheese.  She said yes you do every day. Every day I hear on the radio, you calling him Cold Cheese. I said,  “no, It is Cochise, because he is an Indian.” She said, “well it sounds like “cold cheese” over the radio.”

 

Mike: I got to know him during base closure. He was carrying that sign at the Statehouse like everybody else.

 

Paul: He was smart enough to know what kind of job and what part of the country he wanted to go.  He spent a lot of time in personnel researching and he found a job. He put in for it and got it. It seems to be in Carolina at a dam or something. They had radios where he wanted to go.

 

Mike: I know you were an outside person at work, but did you have any contact or stories about any of the Colonels?

 

Paul:  No, I was Vice President of the Union and in charge of negotiating the contracts and that is not as easy as it sounds like. No not too much. It was always interesting conversation to listen to these guys.  Every time we would get a new Commander in, we would say, I wonder who is in, the “drinkers or the hunters?” Some of them liked to party more than others and some of them liked to hunt more than others.

 

Mike: I remember that there was a Rod and Gun Club out there.

 

Paul: They were the hunters.

 

Mike: I never did see the Officer’s club. Did you ever see it?

 

Paul: It was just being closed down. Of course, when I first came here, I worked in 600, It was why down in nowhere. They had a swimming pool there at one time. They had rooms there. When this place was really going in the early times, there was a barber shop in there. A lot of rooms in a motel like setting with wash stands in there. Medicine cabinets and they had a nice bar there.

 

Note:  Joe Robb comes in and talks to Paul about fixing a telephone up range.  Big Oaks changed the locks. Paul gives him his old key and Joe made arrangements for Paul to get another key.

 

Joe Robb: We were worried about for a little while. Are you back to a 100%? We have that phone up by the trailer that we need fixed.

 

Paul: Yeah, I am in pretty good shape. I can’t climb. I can’t fall that would be bad.

 

Joe: Would you all like to eat dinner with us?

 

Mike and Paul:  Yes! If you have enough we will eat with you.

 

Mike: I wanted to interview you long before your accident. You were into everything.

 

Paul: Kinda.

 

Mike: Were you involved in establishing the Credit Union.

 

Paul: Yes, I was not the first one, but I got involved in it. I was like everybody else. I was just a little bit leery at first. I was pretty low in number there.  I finally told them when I joined, “I’m not to much worried about you, because I joined one day an borrowed money the next. I said you are going to owe me more money than I owe you. One day Barclay Hudson or someone made a big sign and it said “Borrow your way out of debt.”  It was good. It took off real well.  It sure made it easy too, because you could take payroll deductions. You could go up there and get the money. They would just take it right out of your check.

 

Paul: You were talking about Mark’s Eagle Scout project and me taking that bucket truck down to the cemetery to paint that cross on top of that chapel.  I asked Col Bishop I think it was, “could I do this?”. He said, “ You know we got to be careful. I said yeah, I won’t let anybody be around it or anything. It is like changing light bulbs in ball parks you know, If we do anything with a bucket truck or anything that a private contractor could do and we beat them out of work, they could come around and sue the government and we would have to pay them what they would have made if they had contracted to do the job. I would be because we beat them out of work.

 

Mike: I would never have thought about that. I was more thinking about danger and stuff.

 

Paul: Well because It was a Boy Scout project, My son wrote him a letter. That what the Col said,” I’ll have to have a letter so that I can either deny it, or accept it. He did and we got the cross painted and I don’t know how we could have paid for it without the bucket truck.

 

Mike: and you actually put some shingles up there didn’t you.

 

Paul: It had a gutter that went all around it. Like a wooden gutter that had tar and tar paper, so we redid that. We did not have to get on the gutter.

 

Mike: I did not know what you did up on the top. I was down with my son, your son and other scouts and we were busy downstairs.  The South West end was beginning to bulge. I called Bernard Sommer over and he shoved the bricks back in place and tuck pointed the corner and made it strong again.

 

Mike: Did you like to come out here and hunt and fish?

 

Paul: Some people did and some people didn’t. I loved, once you get the fever of mushroom hunting it is hard to give it up. I guess they won’t let you go out there now and hunt for mushrooms, now.

 

Mike: Did you have any favorite spots? Most people would not tell you where they were.

 

Paul: No they would go to their grave without telling anybody where the mushrooms were. I had one of the EOD guys tell that when he died, he was going to put a little map in the casket with an x marked where all the mushrooms were growing, just so people would think they could go and find them.

 

Mike: What makes conditions for good mushrooms? 

 

Paul: It is the soils conditions, but you got to have dead wood that has been there for a while.

 

Mike: I would not ever eat a mushroom out of the woods, because I could not tell the good ones from the poisonous ones.

 

Paul: You can’t mistake a toadstool for a mushroom. Anything in doubt, just leave it there.

 

Mike: Did you ever get to spend the night in Old Timbers.

 

Paul. I did back then. One time when my daughter, Angie was a senior we had a party out there one time. It was very nice, because about three O’clock in the morning some coyotes came around and started hollering. It was scary. It scared them all to death.  It was interesting. I have done a little fishing, not a whole lot. Now I am going to try to start again and begin fishing again. You have to coordinate it with Big Oaks folks. I just got to find out what I have to do. I do miss the mushroom hunting. You’re in the woods and it is just nice. The last deer, I have hunted out here four or five times, but the last one I shot, it died so hard, it did not die so hard I guess, but it looked at me with those eyes, that I said that I am not going to do this again.

 

Mike: One other thing, that I want to touch on is that I know you were a cook in the Reserves. I have eaten your food in the Boy Scouts. How did you end up being a cook in the Reserves. .

 

Paul: The unit was losing its cooks. There were four of us that went in. Two of us went in as a cook and the other two went in as truck drivers, I think. I think I was the only one that got what he put in for. So the cooks were leaving and I advanced really quick. I became first cook in the reserve unit.

 

Mike: “How did you learn to cook?”

 

Paul: I went to Army Cooking School in Fort Leonard wood Missouri. The thing about it is in the class that I was in, all of them went to  Jamaican Islands when they graduated. A guy tried to talk me into re-uppin so that I could stay in and I thought that sounded awful good, except the last guy, alphabetical order, went to Alaska. You talk about a sick pup. The unit went to the Caribbean and he went to Alaska. When you go to summer camp, of course, you get a mess hall. You open that thing up. No I don’t regret the cook thing. I have fiddled around with it off and on in different places.

 

Mike: I have eaten your food, pies and all.

 

Paul: Yeah Black Lake, Michigan.

 

Mike:   Even When Father Burwinkel had his first Mass, you made a bundle of pies for that dinner. How many.

 

Paul: a bunch. They wanted home made pies. I got a little flak over that. The lady in charge said, If you want that many pies, you’re going to have to make them. So we got enough help and we got it done.

 

Mike: Yeah, I went over there one time and there were a bunch of people sitting around peeling apples. There was a little old lady, she just loved to peel apples and she peeled and peeled and peeled.

 

Mike: We are getting to the end of this tape, but we have been interviewing JPG employees and I just thought that you might have a lot of stories.

 

Paul: I will tell you one of the craziest things. We were burying that cable North, they wanted to get a field up North of K road. We went up there and around one of those curves. We were getting short on cable and they cut the corner and the demolition figured out the path. They had a PC pulling a cable trailer thru the mud. And they had the reel was trying to get messed up and we had to stop and get the cable all straightened out and off, because it was plunging. We got that done and took off again. Sparky Brunton and he got stuck in the mud. It was almost over his boots. One guy shouted out at him, “you better get hold of that trailer fore it gets away from you to pull you out of there or you are going to be here forever. That suction just had his legs caught and he couldn’t move.

 

Mike Moore:  Did you stay all the way to the last day of the proving ground.

 

Paul: I took the “Early Out.  I left about a month before the last day. I tried to change to extend to that last month, but they said no it was a game of numbers and we have to get them down, so they wouldn’t let me extend. They had that bonus there. If you stayed to the end, they did not know if the bonus would be available of not. So what’s another month, I elected to go out.

 

     my last duties were to take all the telephones  that we had up north in all those bunker we had to get out. Then we had some excess cable and had to get that all ready for them to ship. Our supply had a certain amount of stuff in and they had to be put in boxes and packed for them to ship out. When I left, they did not have anything left.  There were no supplies, there was not anything.

 

Mike Moore: How did you feel as you left?

 

Paul: Actually it was like death really, because you knew that some of these folks you would never see again. They just scattered to the winds. You know when the stories first came out that we could all go to Yuma, Well I would have kind of liked to have seen Yuma. I don’t know if I would have liked it or not, but as closing became closer, Yuma said Nah! We have all the people that we need.

 

Mike : Yeah, I wanted to stay with the government. It looked like all they wanted were Test Directors and EOD types. At the time I left it looked like they were only going to take about 30 people.

 

Paul: I worked out okay, because I was getting so close to being able to get an early out and a pension and keep my insurance. I wanted to stay long enough to get my insurance. That all worked out. I just did get enough time to get the early out. I had a year’s sick leave. and they threw that over to time served.