Dr. James Clark

Interview by Mike Moore 2007

Jefferson County Historical Society

This is Mike Moore. It is the eleventh of June, Monday at Jefferson County Historical society. I am interviewing Jim Clark, former Employee of Jefferson Proving Ground.

Mike: Could you introduce your self and tell us where you currently reside?

Jim: This is Jim Clark.  I presently live in Douglas, Michigan.  The address is P.O. Box 46.   My new phone (269) 857-7277.

 Prior to our move to Douglas, My wife, Carolyn and I resided at 123 West Third Street in Madison. We lived in that house for approximately 35 years. When I retired from Federal Service, we decided to go North. Simply, We wanted to downsize our home and also Carolyn has family in the Douglas area, along Lake Michigan, south of Holland.  We have been there approximately one year. 

Mike:  What brought you to Southern Indiana?

Jim: When I was working on my Doctorate at Indiana University at Bloomington, My wife and I were offered the positions of Associate Deans of Students at Hanover College.  Basically, Dean of Men, Dean of Women. We came to Hanover. We found that college life there was not what we were used to. It was quite conservative, we found that the duties there were so demanding, week ends, we had no time for our selves.  Carolyn, after one year resigned, and took a job in the community. I stayed one more year at Hanover College. After that I finished my Doctorate and began looking for positions. We had lived on campus for two years, but once I resigned, then we moved to our house in Downtown Madison.

I started my career with Federal Service in 1980. I started at the Office of Personnel Management in Dayton, Ohio. I was in what was known as the Ohio – Indiana Training Group. We provided training services to Federal Agencies. We held seminars and provided consultation and so forth.  OPM does not do that anymore, but at the time it was big business. When I worked for OPM, I happened to know Nancy Thurston, whose was a member of the personnel staff at JPG. She knew I was a Federal Employee and she called me once and asked if I was interested in working at the Proving Ground. At the time, I said no.

     About six months or so later, she called me again and said there was an opening for a Employee development specialist, i.e. training officer. I was kind of tempted but not really ready to go and then OPM downsized and I was going to be in a Reduction in Force. I hated to leave the Dayton Job, but the job was disappearing. I did not want to lose my federal service. I ended up coming to the Proving Ground in the Fall of 1981.

Wherever I worked Dayton, Fort Campbell, we still resided in Madison for a couple of reasons. We had a nice house. Carolyn had a job, and in Federal service you never really know how long you are going to be in one place. I worked at JPG approximately three years, until 1984.  I went back to Dayton and worked for the Air Force as an employee development specialist for three years. In December of 1986. At that time the EEO office opened up. Fred Hill brought it to my attention. I figured eh What the heck.  I applied and I got the job. I came in December of 86. I stayed until April of 1995 when I had to move on because of Base Closure. I was placed at Fort Cambell, Kentucky. I was the EEO Officer at Fort Campbell for three years, still living in Madison.

In 1998, I applied to be an Investigator in the office of Claims and Investigations, which I did until I retired in Feb of 2005.  I was retired for a year, when my former employer asked me to come back for a year due to shortages of personnel. I returned to work in April of 2006.  I worked for one year and I retired again in April of 2007.

Mike: Did you go all the way to the end at JPG?

Jim:  I did not. I left in April and I believe the gate closed in September 1995. I was on the Priority Placement List.  You know the story of the Priority Placement List. It happened to come up that I matched a job at Fort Campbell. If you matched and did not take it, then you might be out of luck. You might not get a second chance. I really did not want to go down that far, but I had no choice.  I was too young to retire. I did not have enough years to retire. I was older and believe it or not older employees might have trouble starting over again. I did not have any choice.

Mike: Who was your first boss when you hired in to JPG

Jim: As an Employment Development Specialist, I was hired in to Personnel. The Director was Margurite Ligon.  Her major assistants were Nancy Thurston and Russell Shorten. At that time there was a large Admin Section, kind of like a typing pool and that was run by Biff Murphy. Personnel also included what we called Computer Services was run by Jeff Vaughan. There were also the copy machine, mail room.  It was quite a large organization at that time. When I was an employment specialist, at that time there was a great emphasis on Individual training plans (IDP). There were a number of wonderful government sponsored schools all over the country.  My job was primarily working with supervisors to help them develop employment plans. I also helped them get quotas to schools. I helped place employees in schools, when all of a sudden we got spaces in schools.

I did in house training, various committees.  I was an EEO counselor. I worked with Herb Inskeep, the EEO Officer. That was it.

Mike Moore: I was wondering, some of the folks you worked with have died. I wonder if you remember Hildred Reid, Ann Christie, Frank Inskeep, Herb Inskeep.  These folks are gone and We can not interview them.  I was just wondering if you could remember stories about them.

Jim: Well lets take them in no particular order.  I worked a lot with Ann Christe. She was various special emphasis programs manager, primarily women’s programs.  She was very women’s programs. She did a good job.  At times some people thought she was a little too assertive in getting programs and ideas across, but she was very good to work with.  She and I used to talk about issues.  If there was an issue involving women, she took it until it was solved.  The first time I was a JPG, Betty Sullivan was the Women’s Program Manager, but Betty was a nice lady, but she did not really have to time to devote to the program.  Ann was in Qasis, she could handle it.  A nice person, but reserved.  She had two children, but I did not know her well. 

Biff Murphy was another wonderful person to work with. I always remember Biff. He would always walk around with a coffee cup in hand and smoking. He would go to staff meeting and it would be the same, coffee cup in hand and smoking. He would try to stay awake in staff meetings which were absolutely boring and a waste of time. 

Another good worker, this first time I was there he was the admin officer.  The second time I came back he had moved to a position in MTD and I don’t remember what it was.  ----------------????

Herb Inskeep, The EEO officer, another fine gentleman, very interested in opportunities for other people, just a nice guy.  I was sorry to see him retire.  I applied for his job when he retired, but I was not selected.

I remember in EDS the last year or so, we ran out of room, so I was moved up stairs in a room that I think you had occupied.  I was there all alone in that big room. Every afternoon, John Staley would come up and go to Herb’s office and sit in there and smoke and talk for about an hour. Every day they were in there. Staley was a good financial administrator.  His philosophy was to see what we can do rather than what we can not do. He was a very professional person. He never got to enjoy his retirement. Herb Inskeep got a few years, but not as many as he would have liked.

I remember the first thing that happened when I first got there, besides learning the job, I was assigned to Arnold Tilley.  Arnold gave me an orientation of the proving ground. I swear, he took me into every building that was there, which I appreciated, because some of them I never went back in. Like that big XRAY machine building. The building where they used mirrors to check why things did not explode. I never was back in there. Arnold was a very knowledgeable  person and he was an excellent guide. My orientation at that time was only to the firing line, I knew nothing beyond the firing line. I did not know what people did.

After my stint with the Air force, I came back and this time as the EEO Manager. I got there things were a mess. The EEO officer had been gone for a long time. He couldn’t get along with the Personnel Officer. Reports and other data were not completed.  The office was just full of boxes and files. It took a month just to get organized. Low and behold in six months the Boss retired and every body was happy including me.

In the EEEO office we had very few complaints, very few, so the emphasis was on counseling the employees. We did a lot of counseling. I did a lot of in-house training. Special programs, women’s programs, etc. Spanish, Black history, Dr. King.  We did well. The commanders supported us. I couldn’t complain, but all good things come to an end.  I had been over in building 33 (Health Clinic).  Bill Cook and I shared an office, Ron Williams, the nurse was in the front, so obviously we had a good time.

Mike:  You were always telling me of the jokes you played on Bill Cook.

Jim: It was awful and they played a few on me too. We got our work done, but we had a good time.

Then as part of the Base Re-alignment and Closure (BRAC), Russ Shorten, the Personnel Office was placed  in Indianapolis, so I came the acting Personnel Officer, the Acting Public Affairs Officer, because Gary Stegner left. When Gary left, I think a lady named Mary Ball came in and she did not last long. So I had three jobs, so when a placement opportunity came up I said it was time to go. By that time there was just a handful of people in the Personnel Office. There was no more Adminn section, no more typing pool, etc. The computer system was under Information Systems at the headquarters at another place. A lot of Changes.

Commanders that I worked for.  I started out with Col Mabry.  Then Col Glover, Then Col O’Brien, Col. Benick, and then Col. Terry Weekley. They were all good to work for. They were supportive. I could not say that I liked one more than the other. They were all good.

Col. Glover made the smiley faces, a cartoon.  According to Phyllis Wilson, She said that you were Gloverized when he placed a smiley face on your desk. Col. Glover was a very dynamic person.  He was a nice guy, but he was the wrong fit for the proving ground. He was black and I think some people resented, which was unfair to him. He was a fully qualified Col. His goal was to do things right and do them on time. He expected people to follow his orders. He did a lot of surprise inspections. He would go around at night and if he did not like what he saw, he made a little smiley face and it was always in purple. Smiley faces or Frowny faces, if he did not like it. That went for everybody.  If you were late for a meeting, His philosophy was when you are early, you are never late, Which I appreciated. You could have a meeting on time and you could get out.

The Smiley Faces and the Frowny Faces. He would put it on these big flip chart pages and leave them in people’s offices and waste cans and file cabinets. 

Mike Moore: I got a few on my desk. He wanted all your work put away and have a clean desk.

Jim: I will never forget this.  When I was first an EEO officer, my office was in 100. It was pretty near around the corner from the Col. At that time it was the Col. and the Secretary’s office, Staley was gone.  I could hear what was going on.  Col Glover put out a mandate, that anything in purple was to be from him. Anything in writing in purple was from him. Nobody else was to use the color purple. One day I was sitting in the office, heard this yelling and screaming and stamping. I saw Gary Stegner going in.  I saw Joy Polly going in. It was a big deal. He had ordered some purple pens and he had not gotten them.  There was a big Hulla-Ballou on that, but the best one was one day I heard this yelling and screaming and stomping and pounding on the wall and Gary Stegner goes in and then  Glen Murphy goes in.

Apparently when they issued the JPG Flag,  they did not go thru the Army Heraldry office and oh Glover was mad at Murphy and Stegner. They did not do it right and probably Col Glover should have known that. We had a nice Flag anyway.

We had Col O’Brien. He liked to talk and was very people oriented.

Col Weekly, I did not work with him as long. It was kind of tough being commander when the base was being closed. It was very demoralizing. Little by little. People go,  buildings close, functions disappear, vending machines go out the door. Cafeteria service stops. Credit Union moves out. Mowing contract was cancelled. It just gets narrower and narrower. JPG was probably the nicest place to work, but not the best job. The best job, I had was investigator of grievances at Wright-Patt. (in Dayton.)

When I was an investigator, I would sometimes stay with Mike Moore in his lavishly appointed apartment in Dayton, Ohio.  Chez Lafayette (Jim’s name for the apartment. ) Mike was more confined to work in his office’s workspace. I was more flexible for I was on the road a lot with the investigations. Mike retired before I did by the way.

Mike Moore:  Did anybody stand out that may have had an impact on you?

Jim: No not changed my way of thinking.  There were a lot of quality people out there.  I thought Ike Peterson was great as MTD leader. I thought he was good. I thought Nancy Thurston was an excellent Personnelest. I thought Russell Shorten was an excellent Labor Relations Person. Biff Murphy was good in admin. This is not to say other folks were bad, it is just that these people stand out in my mind. Jeff Vaughn and his crew were very, very knowledgeable and I think that helped a lot.  As far as on the line goes, I did not have as much contact with those folks, but they were hard workers. I got involved with Employee Action Teams. That was fun, we accomplished a great deal.

Mike Moore: When you were Public Affairs Officer, ”Did you take folks on tours to their old home places.?”

Jim:  Some, not a lot. A few. Take them up North. I remember one tour, I think Wiggum or Wiggins or something. Nice people. A man, his son and a brother who was a little slow, (Pinkey). They took me out and showed me where their old farm place was and it was right there, He told me that that stone was the corner of the old stone barn. It was very interesting.  The brother said Oh yeah, just down the road here was our Church. I said really! He said I remember that we had a handicap kid , wheel chair.  We built a ramp on the side of the church so that this young man could get into Church.

So he walks up the road and in a few minutes, he said Yoohoo!  Come here! And there it was that cement ramp right there in the middle of the woods where their church had been. That was a very interesting day.

I thought a lot of Nadine Greenhill, She was very good as Contracting Officer. She was very, very good. Very Professional

Mike Moore: Yes.  I typed up her interview by the Hanover students. It was interesting.

One story that you told me this morning at Coffee was about Hildred Reid and his coming to work at the Proving Ground.  Would you mind telling that story here on tape.

Jim:  Hildred was a very talented Mathematician. He and I worked together a lot Black History programs, Dr. Martin King Programs, Community things. Often times we would go to Charlestown at the Field Safety Office. So we had a lot of chance to talk about things.  He was a good man to talk to. I remember talking about Black-White relationships in the community.  He said when he came up here, He and his family could not find a place to live. Nothing available, nothing for Sale. People would not sell or rent to him, because there were not a lot of Black people here. There were a lot of Black Families in Madison, but they were here since the town was founded. 

He was a newcomer. He wanted to find a place that he wanted to live in. He could not find any place.  He told me that He went in and talked to Col Bishop, who had hired him.  Hildred said Col. I can not find any place to live. I am not going to be able to accept the job. I am going back. 

Jim: I think he came from Macon, Georgia. 

Well,  Hildred  said that Col. Bishop made a number of  phone calls and before he knew it, Hildred and his family had a decent place to live.

Jim: I think Col. Bishop basically told the Community people that they had better get on the stick.

Mike Moore: I feel that Col. Bishop was the most dynamic commander that we had.

Jim: I did not know him, He was before my time, but I have heard that.

Mike Moore:  He just pulled JPG into the scientific technology of the computer age.  Before he came, we could not have a computer.  He bought the computer, but called it something else and kind of snuck it in as a data collection device or something like that. To get carpet for the floor it was called a noise elimination device. He did. He got the first computer there. He did. His determination was that all firing records were going to be computerized.  We never quite got there, but he made a valiant effort.

Jim: I think when I started there, everybody wanted an IBM Selectric-Typwriter with a ball and a card reader. When I left everybody had gotten rid of typewriters and virtually everybody had laptops.

It was a shame the proving ground closed, because we did a good job. We worked hard for the Government and we had a good reputation.

Such is life.

The end of Interview

Photo on top of page:    Federal Women’s Program, August 30, 1993 Front Row- Hildred Reid, Amy Deane, Sue Berry, Keynote speaker, Donna G. Mcloud, Susie Shorten, Yvette Hayes, Pat Petty Back Row—Col Weekley, Al Geisler, Christy Taylor, Gene Hankins, James Clark, Paul Torline.