Ken Knouf Interview by Mike Moore

Sept. 12, 2006, JPG, Bldg 125

    My Impressions go back to October 1982.  I was recruited for JPG’s first and only Natural Resource Manager.  Up until that time the different components of the Natural Resource Program, hunting, fishing, camping and timber management were all done by various people around the installation and Col. Hawkins Conrad, Base Commander at the time decided that he wanted to consolidate those into one position.  I was the fortunate one recruited for that job, even though; I was a little apprehensive coming on to a regular Army installation. 

     My background was with the Corps of Engineers as a recreation planner working in Seattle Washington. I didn’t really know what I was getting into coming into Southern Indiana at a World War II era installation.  I pretty much had to develop my own job that evolved in time into a very interesting job. I was responsible basically in administering the hunting, and fishing and camping and other outdoor recreation, the Cultural Resources Program, which included Archeology and Historic Preservation, Timber Management and that was done through a cooperative relationship through the Corps of Engineers at the Louisville district in particular with a fellow named Dan Puckett.  I did a lot of wildlife management activities and other odd jobs such as grounds management, fertilizing trees in kind of a catch all position that evolved into a fairly major type of a job.  I worked in that capacity until JPG closed in September of 1995.

     I was one of the very fortunate ones, “one of three” to be selected to stay after closure.  I think that was because the way the process was going, we had an idea that the Fish and Wildlife Service would become a major player and with my background, I had dealt with the Fish and Wildlife Service people over the years and I think the feeling was that I could continue to deal with them to make the transition somewhat smoother.  So the Army at that time, Col Weekley the base commander at that time told Phil Mann and I that we would be here about a year after closure.  He told Yvette Hayes that she would be here about six months.  It has now been eleven years and we are still here.  It’s a case where the bureaucracy has certainly worked in our favor. 

Mike Moore:  You are not military at all.  I would like to get your reactions to working for a military person.

Ken Knouf:  My first boss was a man by the name of Bill Chapman, who was the Facilities Engineer here and a funny story is when the Army flew me in to Madison and JPG  for a house hunting trip and they deliberately made sure that I did not meet Bill Chapman.  Bill was a good guy, a little eccentric at times and kind of a strange supervisor.  I enjoyed working for Bill, but apparently some other people felt he wasn’t the best supervisor.  He was one of the first ones that I met when I came here to work and he was not really sure what I was supposed to be doing.  He had not been told very much. Like I said it was a job that just kind of evolved. 

     When I first came to work, I did not have a desk, I did not have an office space, I did not have pencil.  I remember one of my first requests was to Sue Berry, who was the secretary to Matt Collins at the time, Matt was our director of Facilities.  I just asked Sue for the basic things like a pen and pencils.  She rounded those up for me.  Bill Chapman did finally find an old surplus meta,l ugly desk and put me in some corner. 

     From there it was just kind of a matter  of just getting used to the installation, being oriented on the mission, how my job fit into the mission.  Sometimes that was looked at rather strangely.  I think a lot of people felt that maybe what I was tasked to do would conflict with the mission.  I tried to make sure that what I would do would complement the mission.  I was not always successful in that regard.

I was exposed very quickly to the way deer hunting was done at JPG.  I felt it was a little draconian at the time and saw that the next year when I was responsible that some changes would be needed.     I very quickly got my feet wet and started to understand the system here.  One of my first tasks  was actually to have some of the old Maple Trees on the main drive fertilized and they told me that I would be supported by a crew from Demolition, did not even know what that meant at the time.  I remember that about the second or third day of going out and having bags of fertilizer and waiting an ungodly amount of time at least in my judgment for a crew to show.  I was told that the day started at seven or seven thirty and I thought that was when the job began.  I waited out on the main drive probably until eight thirty or so and quarter to nine finally some trucks showed up and some guys from “Demolition” jumped out, nice guys, but I don’t think that they were real enthused at the prospect of having to drill holes into the ground and filling them up with fertilizer. 

     They introduced themselves, and promptly did about one or two holes and decided it was break time.  They all piled back into their trucks and headed back to their building and kind of left me there wondering what in the heck is going on?  They came back at nine thirty, quarter to ten and maybe put another ten or fifteen minutes of effort into the task and then they told me it was lunch time.  They got back in their vehicles and went back.  I went back had a quick lunch came back out and about twelve thirty they showed up and we worked another hour or so and it was afternoon break.  By then I was getting a feeling that maybe this was not going to work real smoothly so I went back and asked Bill Chapman about it and he got with a fellow named Tom Roller, who was over part of MTD (Materiel Testing Directorate)  and very quickly, I found that really I was not there to supervise, but merely to tell them what needed to be done and then let them work at there own pace. Once I understood the ground rules, it made it a lot easier. 

     That’s the key to JPG.  You think you know how things should be done, but really you need to understand behind the scenes ways things are done.  When you come onboard a place like this in a strictly military sense, you look at an organizational chart and see the ways things are supposed to flow, but it does not take you long to realize there are certain people that maybe don’t show up on the organizational table who are really the one’s you need to get to know and develop some rapport with in order to be successful in doing anything.  It took a while to develop that familiarity with who you really needed to get to work with in order to get the job done, but that is probably at anyplace.

Mike Moore:  Tell me about the time that the Army destroyed the beaver dam.  JPG was going to take back the land claimed by the beavers.

Ken Knouf:  When I came to work in 1982, there were no beaver at JPG.  In about two years we started getting reports about these critters coming in naturally.  They were not introduced.  When we got reports of the flooding of some of the roads up in the range area I was asked to take a look, It did not look like trapping or shooting the beaver was the way to go and we were going to try to destroy their dam.  It was a big horseshoe dam right along “E” Road near the headwaters of Big Creek.  Again my good friends from “Demolition: who were the ones charged with destroying that.  I remember distinctly riding up with them in a truck listening to them complain the whole time that they hated to do that kind of thing.  It went against “Mother Nature” and they were all friends of “Mother Nature” and the thought that that was the cruelest thing to do to destroy a beaver dam. 

     When we got up there they went into the project with an amazing sense of dedication to do the job right.  I remember them pulling the big snake tubes out of their truck and these tubes were oh, my they were probably three or four feet long and three or four inches in diameter all filled with explosive charge.  They put these charges right on top of the horseshoe dam there and as I said there were four or five of these snake tubes and they set the fuses and we were told to move back and I think we moved back at least a quarter of a mile and in three or four minutes there was this huge explosion.  It looked like a miniature “A” bomb going off.  There was a mushroom cloud of water and we all watched with fascination then went back and we admired the work of “Demolition”.  They had completely blown that dam to smithereens and we thought that took care of the flooding problem on “E” Road. 

     Lo and behold, we went back the next morning and those critters had started to rebuild that dam.  At that point, Phil Mann, who was one of the three who works here was at that time head of “Roads and Grounds” decided that what we needed to do was to ditch the water away from “E” road and not worry about trying to take care of the animals.   Phil’s people did that pretty quickly and before you know it, we no longer had a problem.  That seemed to be the way we did things here. 

     We would approach tasks one way then if that did not work then sometimes we would use common sense to solve problems.  That was certainly the case with the beavers anyway.  So the beavers to this day in 2006 have completely taken over this place.  There are ponds everywhere.  The fish and wildlife Service of course encourages them to be here, because it creates some valuable “Wetlands Habitat” Beavers are very interesting to watch.  You can generally see them very early in the morning or late in the afternoon (dusk).  It is just amazing to think that not that many years ago there were no beaver in Indiana/  They are kind of like deer and other animals, they have just kind of taken over.

Mike Moore:  One other thing, I remember when you first came here at Krueger Lake you put some kind of device out there that sprayed water up in the air.  There was kind of a joke about Ken’s sprayer out there.  Could you tell us a little bit about that thing out there?

Ken Knouf:  Krueger Lake of course was the first lake built by the “Old Timbers Rod and Gun Club”.  It was kind of an experiment to see if they had the means of building Old Timbers Lake.  Krueger was built in the late 60’s.  It remains to this day a nice little fishing lake.  It is about seven acres.  One of my jobs was to coordinate with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Services Fisheries Biologist, by the name of Chuck Surpanought????. 

     He would come in every year and survey both Krueger and Old Timbers Lakes.  He would go out into the lake with an Electra-shocker and he would basically shock the fish.  He would not kill the fish, just shock them. He would momentarily stun the fish.  They would come up to the surface and we would net the fish and we would take readings of size, weight, length, age, and record that data and write a report.  That would give us a record year to year of the productivity in the lakes.  He decided one year that the productivity was faltering and decided that the water quality was a little bit on the acid side and he thought we needed to sweeten it up. 

     There were two ways to go.  The first was to spread lawn flower on the lake.  The second method was to put an aerator in the lake.  My mechanism was to buy an aerator we ran an underground and underwater electric line to power it.  We were spraying the water in the air putting oxygen into the water.  It worked well for a couple of years, but then it got damaged.  We had a model boat club here that used to run Mini Regattas at Krueger Lake.  At one of their first Regattas, one of their radio controlled boats ran smack dab into the Aerator and the Aerator was never the same after that.  That is what led to its demise I am afraid. For the time it was working it looked like a little fountain out there at Krueger Lake and as I said, it did improve the water quality out there. 

Mike Moore:  Could you talk about how you got a couple of buildings out here on the National Register of Historic Places?

Ken Knouf:  We basically have six structures that are placed on the National Register of Historic Places. That is Oakdale School built in 1869, Old Timbers Lodge finished in 1932, and four stone arch bridges.  I knew enough, even though I am not a trained historic preservationist,  I knew enough that these structures were historically significant.  At that time the Army was encouraging installation to nominate structures to the National Register.  The first go around involved doing Oakdale School.  We did that in the early 1990’s, kind of in conjunction of the 50^th anniversary of JPG being built.  We had a consultant from Columbus, Indiana.  Her name was Laura Thayer who actually did the nomination form for us. 

     She did research on the school and prepared the nomination form which was fairly detailed.  That was presented to the State Historic Preservation Office in Indianapolis.  It was approved at the State level and forwarded to the keeper of the registry, The National Park Service and it was approved.  We got Oakdale listed relatively quickly.  As we were getting near base closure, I felt that if Old Timbers Lodge and the four bridges being on the list might afford them a little more protection.  With the Commander’s and my supervisor’s approvals, we again engaged the services of Laura Thayer, who  prepared the nomination forms for all four bridges and Old Timbers Lodge and that was one of the last efforts in terms of historic preservation here and they were submitted in the mid nineties and were approved after Base Closure.  The Air Guard is responsible for the maintenance of those structures and they are doing a pretty good job.

Mike Moore:  I was wondering now what are some of your thoughts on the last eleven years that you have on taking tours out to old ancestral homes, individual family tours, groups sponsored by the JPG Heritage Partnership, etc.  I find it fascinating that you have co-habited here in an old firehouse with the Fish and Wildlife Service for eleven years.  You are not in charge of anything, you have no power, You are just here.  Tell us about the last eleven years.

Ken Knouf:  First of all, if some one had suggested to me years ago that my career would end up like this as one member of a three person caretaker, over-site Army staff at a closed installation looking over the shoulders of a Federal Agency whose task is managing the property, I would have thought that they were crazy. I could never envision my career ending up like this.  I have been very fortunate to be allowed to stay in Madison, sometimes it is almost unbelievable what the Federal taxpayers are paying me to do.  I kind of credit or look at our position here as not so much what we do as tp what we know.  Between the three of us there is probably seventy years of institutional memory of this place and between the three of us Yvette Hayes, Phil Mann and myself, we generally know when and where to go to get something done.  I think that is our strength. 

     It has been an interesting eleven years.  Of Course one of my focus areas is to make sure the story of this place is not forgotten.  There is a tremendous amount of sacrifice and personal contributions made in operating this place; making sure our soldiers were given the best ammunition possible.  The history of this place is a story that deserves to be told and shared and I am just afraid that it will be forgotten.

     That was the kind of impetus for developing the JPH Heritage Partnership.  It was a group of people that felt the story needed to be told, whose ancestors lived here before the Army displaced them, but felt that  was their patriotic duty to leave and let the Army develop the land to be a bombing and artillery testing range.  Not to take anything away from the Fish and Wildlife Service, but their mission is fish and wildlife management not history and not cultural resources.  We felt that kind of effort needed to be done aside from the refuge operation and we are doing that through a variety of ways.  We have a book.  We have some book reprints that are available, a number of oral histories, some exhibits that we hope to place with the Jefferson Historical Society and maybe even up in Ripley county and Jennings County. 

     We have sponsored seminars for the past five years dealing with different aspects of this places operation, put out several brochures and fliers and hope to continue this.  One of my favorite tasks has been to guide  or escort families back out to their “old stomping grounds” where perhaps they were raised or where their ancestors farmed or lived.  I am amazed that over the years, I will be taking people who are well into their 70’s, 80’s who have not been up to their old home-site for fifty or sixty years or longer since the Army displaced them; where I just see a track of woods or some open area. 

     In their minds they see where all the buildings were, their barn, outbuildings, cisterns, everything and it is as clear in their mind today, 2006 as it was in the late 1930’s and that just absolutely astounds me.  I will take groups up there and they will point out where their neighbors lived.  Where things happened that are significant to their lives.  Like I said where I just see trees and maybe a field, they will see that landscape intact in their minds.  I just think that is a wonderful thing to allow people to do.  Generally over the last few years,

     I have averaged about two or three of these tours a month.  I do know as these folks get older they are starting to die off and the last thing they want to do is to see their old home place.  If we can we give them that opportunity.  We don’t walk them into dangerous areas or restricted areas, but we get them as close as we can to their home site.  If the former home is in a hunting area, we take them back there.  It is amazing how spry these people are when they get close to their home, people who have a hard time getting into and out of a van all of sudden get new legs and they start tracking out through the woods and I have a hard time keeping up with them.  That is one of the nice things about my job.

Mike Moore:  Over the years you have had a lot of contact with Louis Munier. You want to tell us about the time you met him and he was in the van when you were having a tour of the John Hunt Morgan trail through out the proving ground.

Ken Knouf:  One of my favorite people that I really, really admire is Louis Munier.  Louis right now I think is eighty seven years old, a friend for twenty plus years.  One of the first things that I did when I first got here, I am little bit of a Civil War Buff, and I was asked to do a tour showing people General John Hunt Morgan’s route across the proving ground.  I had a van full of people and we were following “D: Road which is basically Morgan’s route across.  We had just crossed the arched bridge over Big Creek and we were coming up on this property that I was told was the ruins of Big Creek Methodist Church. 

     I was still new and I did not know any better and I was pointing out to the people the ruins of Big Creek church and all of a sudden there was a voice that said, “I don’t think so.” .  I can’t really do Louis’s voice, but he has a good Midwest, Southern Indiana accent, and I said, you don’t think so.  Well what do you think it is? Well I think that is the Munier homesite.  He introduces himself as Louis Munier.  I said “How do you know for sure Mr. Munier?”  He said, “Well I was born there.”  (Laughing)  Everybody in the van just started laughing and hollering and to this day Louis reminds me of our fist exposure and how he corrected me.  We still get chucle out of that, because it was really funny.

      That is what happens sometimes if you just go by what people tell you and what you read without doing your research and nine times out of ten you are wrong. And it takes some one who knows to set you in your place.  Since then Louis has been a tremendous friend and shared a lot of information on the proving ground and for a man of his age he has a tremendous memory and he can remember names, dates and features that Gosh I can hardly remember what I ate last night.

Mike Moore:  Here are some thoughts that Ken is thinking about, say like it is fifty years from now and he is looking back on these times.

Ken Knouf:  Well I think Mike that a thought that occurs to me frequently is that as a Civil Servant that down the road someone would look at me as not real aggressive, not really a failure, but somebody who did not have a lot of drive and ambition.  You look at my career, I started out as a GS-9 as a recreation planner with the Corps, which is not a bad level to start with, but I got my 11 out in Seattle came into JPG as an 11, I have been an 11 for the last 20 maybe 25 years.  I was never interested in getting a promotion and I believe that was because I enjoyed most of my time working here.  There were a lot of challenges, a lot of interesting things. 

     The people here were particularly nice and I got to know them very well. Some people I got to know too well I am afraid; consequently you develop some intense relationships, both positive and negative. There were some people that I enjoyed working with and that made my job so much more worth-while and I owe a whole lot of big thanks too them. If my kids, my grandkids, or my great grand kids ever listen to this they will kind of know what kept me in this area. It was important to, and at that time my wife, that they be afforded the best education possible. I thought the Madison Schools were doing a good job. 

     Relatively speaking the kids were just flourishing within the school system, so when a lot of other people here were dealing with closure and were transferring or retiring, I really fought like heck to at least increase my chances of staying here.  I was very fortunate to be given that opportunity. It afforded my kids a chance to graduate from Madison.  All three of them were Co-Valedictorian to their respective classes, I very proud of that. They all went to private schools and they have all done really, really well.  I am not sure that would have been the story had we moved.  It may have been, but they developed some very close ties to the Madison Community and they never forget that when they come back home to visit.

      I hope maybe twenty five years down the road I will be able to take my grandkids on a tour of this place and that my memory will be as sharp as some of the old timers I take now.  I will tell them where I used to work and where things happened and take them up into the range area and I hope by that time there will be a magnificent stand of woods up there, some tracts of forest that approach “Old Growth”. And I guess to that there is some small part that I can take some pride in that I had something to do with that and had something to do with the decision to make this into a National Wildlife Refuge.  I knew a long, long time ago that this place had the attributes and the qualities to be just a tremendous National Wildlife Refuge and it took a lot of tweaking to get people to understand that.  I felt very confident that the People at the Wildlife Service could see that and I feel very pleased how that turned out.  It is almost by default that this place has to be a Refuge.  It has worked out very well for this generation and I think for future generations.